Get Out There | 04 Backpacking The Wallowa Mountains and King Range
Backpacking stories from the Wallowa mountains in northeast Oregon.
Robert talks about his experience backpacking through a thunderstorm.
Billy Newman Robert Biscarret
Hey, what’s going on? This is Billy Newman, and I’m here with Robert Bisca. rat. We’re recording the get out there podcast. How you doing, Robert? Hey, I’m doing good, Billy. How are you? It’s cool, man. I’m doing good up here. And yeah, thanks for calling in tonight. Recording Episode Four of the get out there podcast. It’s kind of cool, man. I like like doing this. It is. Yeah. It’s been a great time. How are you liking this rain? Oh, man. It was kind of well, you know, as we said today, for part of it. It was all right. Like I was getting through the day. And then the last half of it was just like a ton of rain. How was it
going? Man, it was a it was pretty good for us the day it’s started raining pretty heavily now. I’ve actually been working out in, in Northern California this last week. So I mean, the weather has been a little bit different kind of getting outside of the valley. Typically a little bit more sunshine than we get here in the valley. But But yeah, now that I’m back in the valley, it’s rainy.
Were you were you out pass this excuse over there in that part of Northern California?
Yeah, yeah. Up there in the hill area.
Oh, I’ve been out in the hill area a couple times. Yeah. I think I went out there with Tyler once to the to the Buddhist temple. Oh, been out there before? No, as far as I knew, all that existed there was a liquor store. Well, the liquor store I mean, that’s what’s in Hill, but I think
freeway exit, not where you would see a Buddhist temple. But no, there’s, I think there’s a road it’s, it’s whatever that first exit is once you get over the scuse. And into California, as you come back down that backside is that first exit, it might not Oak Hill, but it was right right there. Right in that area. You take that and, and you cut back West, along along the ridge of the South line of the mountains and you go back a little ways and you kind of cut up a bit. And it’s like nowheresville out there. There’s just like, there’s like a couple like ghost town Aries out there, it looks like and like, I know, like one of those kind of short railroad sections, like where they stack up cars, something like Yeah, but then yeah, you just turn there you go up into the woods a little further and you end up at this pretty impressive Buddhist temple. Like it’s been there for years. Yeah, I guess like that the Ashland hippies kind of bought it and set it up. And, you know,
I was gonna say is that a hotspot like that, that weird 150 miles between readin and Ashland that nobody lives in is that just like, I
think it’s, it’s for its tranquility. It’s, it’s been, it’s intense. Like, you go out there, I think we’ve taken pictures of it before, but they like have all the Buddhist flags of flower. You know, like on the on the side of the hills that you can watch. It’s got it’s kind of cool. It’s like a pretty impressive structure that they build out there. Like it looks like an orange a Chinese building, and then lower down. There’s like these columns that are all painted red with like, you know, ornate symbols on it. And they like spin in this like, pretty big, like, drum system that goes and there’s like 12 of them. And they like all spin as you go into this temple. Wow. Yeah. is a pretty heavy duty template for just out in the backcountry. Nowhere. Have you been out there much like out into some of the stuff in the skews?
No, not really. I mean, you and I did kind of on point with this podcast, but we did. We did the hike up pilot rock. Oh, yeah. I was thinking about that. That is up there. Yeah, I mean, that’s that’s really like and I mean, other than snowboarding up on Mount Ashland. That’s kind of my only experience with that area.
Yeah, that’s right. You know, the six keys is what I want to get into more like pilot rock is cool. I think. I think a pilot rock more as like something of Eastern Oregon or more like Table Rock. You know, when you think of Kind of, yeah, that side of it. But I remember hiking pilot rock with you. That was like, late last week of July 2008. I remember gas was 525 a gallon. Oh my God. He’s like 550 a gallon when you went over to Ashland it was
isn’t that when Tyler hit that rock in his Camry hatchback. And oh yeah. Ended up pushing that hole in his oil pan. Or it was his transmission pan? Oh, yes. It was he was leaking transmission fluid everywhere.
I remember that night there was thought that like it might be the end of the Camry and the guy now, but yeah, it was I remember that. Yeah, like the whole drive back, like loaded down with people and yeah, just I guess it dripped out over the trip. But yeah, it’s too bad. I remember Dawson came with us on
that. That was Dawson that that turned us on to that and for those of you that may be listening Dawson was our was our high school. English teacher and still still a good friend to this day. So I did, but yeah, he took us out there showed us showed us around the area and ended up being a great hike. I recommend that anybody that has access to that area
Yeah, it is a it’s kind of a challenging hike and sometimes I mean there’s there’s a little pirate, you know, you gotta you gotta kind of get up up No, you just, you just got to get up. But there’s a couple challenging spots in that hike. I remember getting there thinking like, Oh, this is like 30% rock climbing or like not like actual doing but like in difficulty sometimes. It’s like this greatest Steve This is like crumbly rock that’s coming around. But it
was it’s not someplace you would take like your your little kids. But I mean any any able bodied individuals would be able to get up there, you know? Yeah. And do it do it. All right.
I remember the the the geocache that was up there at the summit.
I don’t know I never was able to kind of like do that with you guys. In fact, that whole geocache movement passed right? I mean, just kind of like the whole Pokemon just to two major things that just never affected my life in any way.
I hear you the geocaching, I hope a little different than Pokemon but, but I remember we found it. We weren’t looking for it. But it was on that hike when we were there. At the summit. I think it was like one of those things. It was challenging enough to get up there that it was sort of obvious where it was located. But yeah, there’s a there’s just the geocache at the summit point of pilot rock. It was like some little film canister to kind of sign your name. But yeah, one of the guys we were with pulled it out. Okay. Look, I found this geocache stashed up here. Let’s sign it. And remember, we like stashed up there again. Just honestly, have I ever taken you to the cave up out of waters Creek area? You did one time? Yeah. Okay. Nice. I’m not gonna go into great detail about that. Because it’s kind of like a Yeah, I get a special a special place. But yeah, that’s kind of neat. That little peanut butter jar therewith. It’s been in that cave for 17 years. Wow. Boy, more than that. It was 17 years when I took you, so probably 20 years now. Yeah, yeah. And only one other person assigned it. That is nuts was pretty insane. Yeah. People don’t find too. Yeah, I think about that, like how few times people have been in some areas, or you know how many years it takes before someone gets back to that spot?
Yeah. You ever wonder that when you get rid of it really out into remote places? And I thought about this a lot when I was firefighting? Oh, yeah. You know, you get out into those areas. And you’re, you know, you’re 1012 miles out into it, looking for a lightning strike. And it just kind of dawns on you. When was the last time that anybody was out here? You know, like, I mean, how many hundreds of years ago? Could somebody potentially walk along this area? Yeah, it would have been so long ago. Yeah. The likelihood of that happening the frequency? Yeah. I mean, what is what’s the likelihood of somebody being up on this ridge at? You know, I don’t know. 7000 feet out and assist us? Right. Yeah. It’s just kind of like, I don’t know. Yeah, that’s a deep wilderness. Because, you know, yeah, it might not mean you. Yeah, I mean, yeah, that’s what I mean, you could probably count the people throughout history that I’ve taken that path that you’re walking on, probably on one hand.
Yeah, I gotta think about that, that there’s really some super remote areas. I mean, even still out here in Oregon and Southern Oregon, especially like, some of it’s still kind of the frontier. It feels like, Oh, very much. So. You know, yeah, it feels like what’s left to the frontier in the in the 21st century? Yeah, there are some some pretty significant locations or wilderness or stretches a wilderness out there that I guess yeah, like, just don’t have a lot of people moving through it at all.
Well, and honestly, that’s what that’s what keeps me in this area. I mean, oh, yeah, absolutely. It definitely is an economy. That is it’s just kind of that unexplored wilderness and what the area has to offer as far as
I know.
No, it’s really cool about that and how much I miss it. Now that I’m up here. Still in Eugene still with a lot of nature around me. I mean, gosh, is like so much the Macan Willamette wilderness to go into but I think back to just like behind our high school, you know, if we if we just wanted to skip class and go back to school, it was like this awesome mountain road that would go up, you know, into this like crazy, endless maze of mountains that goes like deep into southern or Northern California. It just Yes, it like that whole like mountain range just started right there. And that was just like mountains and wilderness, back for for miles and miles out into the next day.
I know it You always just kind of like, yeah, whatever is behind the mountain, but then you start thinking about what’s behind the mountain. You just go. Oh, wait, this
is it for a long, long way. Yeah. You know, and we’re lucky. I mean, a lot of people don’t have that. Oh, yeah, absolutely. That, you know, and they’ll never be able to experience that. Yeah, I
think I think some of that stuff of doing things where you’re removed from, from a population for a long time is really cool. And it’s something where you, you really feel like you get back. Not back to nature so much. I mean, I always have like, some kind of technology, like always been cameras and stuff like when I’m going out. So I understand like, it’s not a naturalists approach. Or maybe it’s not what I mean, but just the kind of the thing of preparing yourself as a person having all your equipment or you know, having your gear, having some steadiness to you and then going out away from people for a while. I always think that’s a really cool Yeah. I didn’t do I want to do more backpacking stuff with you? And
so Cinnabon point, yeah. So that’s, that’s what I was getting to. Oh, yeah. Kind of on point with people that may not have that opportunity. I want to talk to you, Billy, oh, maybe some good opportunities, places to go hike. I know that you’ve hiked in not only the lower room, but I don’t want to get too hung up on that. I think we’ve focused on that a little bit. And the whole world and I would like to touch on it. But but there’s so much more out there beyond Yeah, dairy, and that wilderness. And so I want to talk to you about I know you did a hiking trip through the walls, and that’s up in Canada, North Eastern Oregon.
Yeah, that’s a great spot. Yeah. And I kind of wanted to hear your take on that. Man. I really want to get you up there. In fact, actually, that’s one of the spots that we should plan on going this summer if we’re able to make a couple trips out to some spots together. But the allow is is awesome.
Yeah, I’ve I’ve I’ve heard nothing but Oh, okay. So actually, here’s kind of an interesting anecdote.
I today I learned that will allow, and I’m assuming it’s spent spelt the same way. I was listening to an Alaskan. Okay, Hunter, kind of, uh, you know, telling stories about his hunting situations. And he was telling me that, oh, williwaw, which was spelled w i l l o w A, which is the same way as the walau is correct. I there’s an A in there. But a real close. Okay. Yeah. Right. So so maybe I’m maybe I am confused. But he was saying that what it is, is unpredictable winds winds that are constantly changing. So if you’re out there hunting and stocking the animal, Willow. I believe that’s how you pronounced it will potentially give your center away. Oh. And I’m wondering if maybe the shape of those canyons and in mountain ranges don’t don’t create some maybe unpredictable winds. That’d be interesting. I
wonder if that’s where the etymology comes from? I remember Yeah. So that area is really cool. I want to get you there. It’s it’s one of the only glacially formed areas in Oregon. Like it’s sort of getting into some of the stuff that we see a little further north when we get up to Glacier National Park. Yeah, further into to to Canada and into the Columbia range. In fact, if you look at a wide map of the Northwest, you can kind of see that the terrain, how it sort of comes down from the Rocky Mountains, if you kind of trace that up into Canada and Columbia range, as that kind of comes down. This is sort of the westernmost edge of something some of the mountains that would be down on the the edge of the panhandle of Idaho that go up into Columbia and then in the summer stuff that goes further east over to the Colorado’s, but it’s not really connected, but it’s like one of the last thing that’s over there, and it is really an unusual piece of land for that area. Like you’ve been over in Eastern Oregon plenty of times. Everything around there like Pendleton La Grande, everything up into Washington. It’s all super flat grassland. It’s just like rolling hills for really long. Yeah, like you get down to the Chico’s of the Blue Mountains. There’s there’s terrain out there. But it’s really not like the allow mountains. And so I think that will allow mountains used to be a Nez Pierce like an Indian city-state, or I don’t know if that’s what that would be. But it was like, it was kind of like a like a section of the Nez Perce tribe that stretched up into Washington and Idaho and Montana. And I think they they had like one of their last outposts there. And like the Oregon American or Oregon, Native American Indian Wars back in 1870, something like that. That’s that was big here in Southern Oregon to during the 1850s. Yeah, I bet it probably was everywhere. But that’s where we get Chief Joseph and the town of Joseph up there. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So So Joseph is that small town? That’s right outside. of the allowance. And when we went there, I think the first time I went there, I did a solo backpacking trip. I got there with my dad when I was a kid. But when I when I got to the point I was on that trip to do that photoshoot back in 2011. It was fall, kind of like mid late September. It was really a nice time of year to go through. I was worried about doing Alpine hiking, as it was getting like later into September, because I really didn’t want to get caught in a freeze because I didn’t have the equipment for it. But I got to Joseph, I park the Camry. I said everything. I’ve had the backpack and like a couple days worth of supplies. And I took off I think I did nine miles up to a spot called ice lake. So is about four miles in a canyon. That was a pretty pretty easy grade. And then it was another like four miles. A switchbacks big. Yeah. Every hiker loves it. Yeah. Yeah, it’s a it’s a lot of switchbacks. It breaks it up. Well, but But yeah, it’s a pretty it’s a pretty steep incline like you do you do most of the canyon. And then you really just have to get up the side of this hill for a long time. But it’s really rewarding. You get out there, you get to this. I mean, have you done? Well, yeah, you probably have definitely in in some of the firefighting stuff that you did, but probably in a lot of the other backpacking stuff you might have done. I was wondering if you’d been up to budget like that Alpine level? Or that the Alpine lakes, that sort of atmosphere terrain?
Yeah. Something I want to talk to you about a little later. Is my experience down in Kings Canyon near Sequoia National Park? Oh, yeah.
I want to break that down with you in a bit. But yeah, that Yeah, that’s a cool area. And so yeah, you know, like when it’s like when you get up above the tree line, and you’re in those, the snowmelt lakes that show up kind of high in those those areas, in the mountains there. But it’s really cool, because in the world, Lao is probably like what you find in other areas where you come back back into, but in the allow is surprisingly, for naturally beautiful as they are they’re really under-populated. I think they’ve got a lot more popular recently. But it was so cool. Because when I was there in September, I was the only person at this lake. Oh, I absolutely believe it. Yeah, see, just that kind of, um, the amount of solitude that you get, I mean, I think I saw one other person walk through a day later.
Well, what’s so cool about that is when you get up to these remote areas, what you’ve done is you’ve eliminated about 95% of the people that are willing to go off of the the natural path, you know, they have the the tourist center, you can drive your car up for they’re there for the day, take some pictures, do things of that nature, but very few people are a going to find the time or be even have the willingness to really spend the time to actually get out there and explore. And that’s the beauty of doing these types of trips is you can really find that solitude and find yourself in situations where you haven’t seen anybody for days on it. That’s that’s what I really loved about it. No, it
was amazing when I was up there, because that was that was really the first experience I had of solo backpacking. That’s the thing I recommend to I mean, you’ve probably done some other version of that before I don’t really, I’m not really done things like that much before. But so completely solo there was nobody else with you. The first time I went, I went backpacking out there. Yeah, it was, it was just me, Marina wasn’t there for that part of the chip. So it was just me and man, I swear. Okay, so break part of the story down. I got lost the first night. It was kind of bad. And it’s probably the thing that I’ve made the most mistakes at in something related to the outdoors, like closest to a cascade of events that would have ended in Where’s Billy? Yeah, right. So yeah, there’s a few points that I got concerned. It was late September, I was walking up. I had started because I had a drive to the allowance. And I got a map from from like, the local spa, I had to put in a little permit thing and just said like, this, this is me, I’m gonna be gone for these many days. It’s so so did did you have to get a permit to go do that. Not really a permit, but you just,
but just kind of like a notification that you were going to be out there. Yeah, I think it’s just a well, they would have found your body at some point.
Yeah, at some point. It’s like this guy was supposed to move his car last week. I think that’s about all the signal that it gives you is like, Oh, this guy was supposed to get this car a couple of weeks ago. He’s probably he was just like an ice lake. So I was going out there. I made it all the way up the straightaway like Remember, if we imagined kind of an L shape we were going up the canyon or kind of the draw with the creek I crossed the creek. And that’s about the time that that the sunset. So it was dark, I probably should just stop there.
So now you’ve now you’ve entered into water made yourself saturated with
water. That’s a good thing because a little wet, and then I cross over, and now it’s dark, and I just got the switchbacks as I rise 4500 feet in elevation to the top of the lake to get to. Okay, so yeah, it’s easy, right just like it’s, it’s how you want to get set up for a long backpacking trip.
It was kind of I typically like to hit my switchbacks at nightfall after midnight, what I shoot for him? Yeah,
yeah, at the witching hour. Let’s go for it. I’ve heard of people doing this before I had my little headlamp and stuff. So I see I go, and it’s relatively easy is what I’m expecting what I had to deal with myself, alright, like, I’m going to stop if it gets weird. Like, I’m not going to just like, like, scale across and escarpment of rock together as a way to, you know, end up to the, whatever their side I was supposed to go to. So I was just gonna say like, I’ll stay on this easy trail, I can see it pretty well. It’ll be pretty regular. I’ll just get up here. And you know, I’ll finish when I do or when I can. I’ll try and make everything go easy. So a cruise that that I do the switchbacks I get to this zone. I cross like another really small creek. It’s just when you kind of leap over pretty much, but it’s it was an area where like the I guess the snow had come through. And it made like a big drift. And then now there’s like, there’s meltwater that’s flowing through it. And when did it done? Was it in a race where the trail I was supposed to take was? So there’s this whole zone in front of me that was washed out? where and what time of the year was this again, you said this was later in the fall, September 18. It was a nice evening, but it was cold out, and it was dark out. And then this was the next thing. So I stopped there. And it’s like dark. There’s no moon that night, really. But I have my headlamp on. I remember I had like Michael Jackson thriller playing in the chest pocket on my iPod. Because I was just by myself, right? I just had nothing to do and us. Nobody Yeah. And so I’m sitting there. I think I ate like a Clif Bar. I had my headlamp on, and I was just kind of poking around and kind of looked up, and then boom, what catches splendid eyes over there. 50 feet 10 o’clock. What’s that? eyes? Wait, what’s that? Well look, Lion lions like Michael jack. Another set of eyes at 12 o’clock. And so I’m looking at you like, whose eyes are these? like big eyes? Like they’re not like really tight together? You know, when you see a cat or something like that. But yeah, yeah. Something predatory. Yeah, it’s hard. It’s hard in a way. So what they told me is that there was no bears. There’s no wolves up there. There’s some wolves. But it really, really no rules. But there’s like, there’s like sheep, I guess, which I really don’t want to run to it either. But yeah, it’s Yeah, better news than the other thing. So I was just really banking that they weren’t interested. But you just looked down the hill, and you just or maybe deer, I guess. But you sit down the hill, and you see like these little yellow eyes, look at it and you go. This is great, especially for your first time. And it’s like this is not not the type of thing you want to get into. But I ended up losing the trail right there. But it was confusing, because I had this map in front of me. And I was standing at the creek. And so what the map showed was, well, the trail is just to the south of this creek. So if we just crack if we’re at that the trail and we just crossed the creek to the to the south side, the trail will be right there. I’m assuming it’s running east to us. Yeah, let’s see. Yeah. East to West progress. Yeah. So I hop over, hop over this little creek, but there’s no trail over there. And so I’m like, Oh, well, it’s got to be just like a little further over here, a little bit up here. And so I kind of like cruise back and forth. I was trying to find this trail. I couldn’t find the trail. So I was like, This is weird. So I ended up getting myself into kind of this weird spot where it’s sort of like up higher in this rocky area where like, because there’s really like nowhere flat to camp by that point where I was at. Because you’re just going up this hill, right? Yeah. So I just like laid out the the stuff there. And I just like crashed until morning where I could see where I was. I was like 10 feet from this like really big drop off.
But I had no idea. But yeah, I woke up that morning just kind of wedged between these like two little trees on what was the least of a slope. Just trying to hold myself in between these little rocks. I don’t kind of roll down in my sleeping bag at night. But I woke up the next morning and then I found out like okay, this was a fake Creek. That wasn’t even on the map. And I supposed to look at this other Creek way over here. And that’s where the trail was. Okay, it was great. Yeah, but that was most of it. When I finally got up to the lake. It was great. Everything else in the trip really went fantastic. There was no one up there at the lake. You just got to go around it super pristine water. Like really cool. Great to do photos. That was really fun. Oh, yeah. And I decided when I was up there, I just should do two days. By Gosh, I should add another day because I already did all the work to get up here. And I was kind of Yeah, yes. So I thought like, well, I’ll just, I’ll just hang out here for another day, I got my food. And I kind of rationed it out a little bit. And I had a little extra stuff that I could cook up to. So I ended up just like, split my meals up and spent more time up there. But yeah, man, that was one of the best trips that I’ve done. Because what I really like about backpacking, I don’t want to hear your take on this is, I like the exercise portion of, of like, doing outdoor wilderness stuff, I think that’s important. Man, there’s a lot of work to do. And I’ve definitely done it. But what I what I dig in as doing photography stuff, is I carry my camera with me in the tripod. And I like getting out to stuff with and being able to take pictures of things that, you know, I normally don’t get to see just kind of around the more pedestrian stuff around town. And so it’s cool to get out to a spot and set up like a base camp. This is kind of the strategy I’ve liked a little bit. So there’s a lot of trips like the lower row where we were talking about earlier, where it’s just sort of 10 miles each day, you do that until you complete the circuit, and then you’re you’re done with it. But I like it, where it’s a little more flexible, where you go into the backcountry, you know, 10 or 12 miles or something like that you set up a base camp, and when you operate out of there with the resources that you brought in for like a couple days. Yeah. And that that’s been really fun for us to do. We’ve done that a couple times. Man, it made it, it made it a lot more comfortable to do. But you just get to you just get to familiarize yourself with that area of the outdoors, which I think is cool, because it’s tough when you just walk through a spot, and then it’s gone. Yeah, man.
Well, it’s a little like traveling, you know, hey, I did not not the same type of backpacking, but I backpacked around Europe for a bit when I was in my early 20s. And you find that you go to all these cool places, but you only spend a day or two in those places. And when you leave, you realize that you never really utilized your time there and got to understand the area, culture, the people. And it’s a lot like that with backpacking, when you’re hiking for a destination, you kind of in a sense, forget to enjoy the time that you’re spending in that area, and you’re focused on the pain and what you got to get through the mental, you know, push through mentally and get a lot of mental Yeah, yeah. And in sometimes you kind of forget about the beauty that you were just passing by, and not to sound cliche, but it becomes that stop and smell the flowers situation. Yeah, you know, and but don’t get me wrong, there are those there are others great points where you find, you know, that beautiful little Brook that’s kind of cruising through the area, and it’s a great spot to take a nooner and, and eat an apple and sit there and put your feet in the water because they’re so sore. And, and those are the little moments that you end up remembering,
yeah, that’s the stuff I love about about that area. And it’s really cool.
But I would love to do something like that I’ve never actually had the opportunity. Just kind of based on the hikes that I’ve chosen to do something like that, where I’ve had the leeway to just say, you know what, we’re going to go in X amount of miles, we’ll see what happens when we get there, we’ll find a place we like. And, you know, we’ll find our tentative destination, set up a base camp there and then explore the area. And I think that’s a really cool approach to the backpacking because a lot of people, I think, take backpacking as well. We’re making the loop we’re doing the circuit, this is the trail or Yeah, yeah, there’s 40 miles, we got two days. Yeah. And so I think, I’d like to do more of that. And I think I’d like to encourage more people to do things like that as well,
it was, you know, it made it a lot easier for the first couple times that I did it. And that’s what I’ve done with Marina a few times, it’s been super rewarding, because you just like, I guess a good example of this was the second time that we went up to the willows went to ice Lake the first time to smaller Lake really beautiful, you might have seen some pictures that I took of it. The next time we went up, we went a little further down that Canyon. So the first cut off-trail is up to ice lake. If you go further, there’s a whole number of other mountain lakes that there are trails to cut off to i’ve i’ve only explored really a very small percent of what there is to offer up here in the willow mountains. In fact, I’ve thought before, if I could, I’d spend like 15 or 20 days, up in the mountains like that, you know, and have like a cache or get the resources again, one time, go back to town and then yeah, but I’ve only been to a couple little spots. So the second time Marina and I both went, we went one leg further over to an area called the lake basin. And this was cool because and this is what we should do. Maybe if we go up sometime, because there’s so many things to do in that area is we went up to the first Lake, we set up our campsite there. And then from there, there’s there’s kind of a number of spoke trails that go off to different lakes that are further up in that chain. So there’s like a, like a number of lakes that are kind of connected all along these these glacially formed mountain ridges that look really dramatic and really steep as they kind of cut-up along up to the top of this mountain. That’s all really just sort of one thing with these big gouges carved out of it from the ground. flow. But yeah, cool area up there. Well, you know, I’ve
seen it in pictures, and you know, you always know that pictures never really do the area justice. Oh, yeah, it’s totally true. But I mean, even even from the pictures, and Okay, so I just do want to touch really quick not to get off-topic. But Billy, you and Marina both do something pretty awesome. I mean, you talk about packing a camera around a lot. I think you should tell people that. You know, kind of what you guys do. I mean, you guys are photographers that yeah, that’s, that’s your hobby. That’s your passion. And I think our field time. Yeah, this outdoor exploration is just kind of like a catalyst to what you guys love to do.
That’s, that’s the way I remember seeing it. You know, I remember watching. I remember watching 127 hours, I was still in college. Yeah, I was like, Man, I’m gonna set my camera up. With the $500 I’m able to scrap together for the summer, I’m gonna go do some kind of thing. There was also another photographer guy that I followed. And I liked I liked a lot of the images that he had. He got like an old Land Rover, or Range Rover, you know, Range Rover, like an old forum and like a like a left hand drive one. Yeah, and and like set that up with a like a tent and stuff and did this whole circuit of national parks, three parts of the West, I was like, oh, man, that is really cool. I want to do something like that I want to go through. And I was just getting out of school, I wanted to, like figure out a bunch of stuff about photography, which is what I was most interested in. And that’s where I was like, man, I gotta figure out a way to travel for a long time and get a bunch of photographs taken at the same time. And that’s when Yeah, that’s how like Marina and I like first started doing more seriously some of the outdoor travel stuff that we got into. And I’ve been liking doing it. I mean, I guess it’s like six years later, of just that sort of stuff. But yeah, you guys, you guys have really put out some incredible stuff, dude. Thanks, man. I appreciate it. I got it. I got to collect it more. I got to put it out.
I mean, like all the art in our house is is photography from the two of you? Oh, yeah,
man. Thank you. Thanks for putting up all our prints that we dropped. Yeah, I mean, I don’t I don’t do it. Because I like you. I do it because it’s good pictures. Thanks, Robbie. I’m down here. Yeah. Man, that was that was one thing I always thought about is, is how cool some of these spots are that? That it seems like people don’t really get to go to, you know, that’s the part of photography I’ve always been most fascinated with is that ability Where is ice photography asserted this, this opportunity to go find the coolest looking thing in the world, and try and capture it somehow and show us? Absolutely. And so that’s so part of that was kind of my drive my interest to nature into the outdoors, where that’s where I always think the coolest things are. And so that’s why, you know, I wanted to go out there and, and do as many types of landscape photos as I could. But backpacking, I mean, it really provides so many opportunities that are separate from what you get on that track, that tourist track of photos that you could go on if you’re going to see. Yeah, natural places, like the bison in Yellowstone. Yeah, yeah, the drive by bison, in Yellowstone. Yeah, you know, whatever, whatever that shot is in, in Yosemite, are very beautiful. And I’ve taken those same pictures and they’re great. But backpacking is super interesting, because it really makes the perspective different probably like how it is, you know, when people go skiing or snowboarding or something, you know, you take the lift up to the top of the mountain. And just that, that work of getting to the top of the mountain, you see such a different perspective on the landscape, and sometimes seems so much more dramatic.
And so that’s something I wanted to touch on also is and and I’m not a photographer, but I would have to imagine if you were just a photographer, and let me know what you think about this, but you’re a photographer, okay? And you’re gonna go photograph the Eiffel Tower. Okay? Perfect. You’re the 15,000th photographer to go take a professional photo of the Eiffel Tower. It doesn’t have that much meaning to it. Okay. spot, you’ve, you’ve taken a great picture. Excellent, but somebody else has done it. But I think when you get out there and you, you really separate yourself from things that people are photographing, and not just about photographs, but you put in the work, you put in the time, the effort, the planning, and you get out to a remote area, you can find beauty in the simpler things, because you can appreciate that. And photography ends up being this, this, this expression of art, right? Yeah, that’s what is this artistic expression? Yeah. And so I think a lot of that kind of pushes through in your guys’s photography. And I mean, one that sticks out in my mind is you guys, you guys were shooting tin cans, you know, oh, yeah. out in the desert. And there’s this, there’s this picture of these cans lined up. And it really just kind of captures a time far beyond this. You know, I I mean, it feels like it feels like 18. You know, 70, it doesn’t feel like we’re running rampant it does. And, and but what’s cool about that is you guys were living that moment. And that really is kind of what pushes through in that. And, and you feel that through the picture, because you guys were there and, and you being there and taking a picture of something that you guys thought was important. It really portrays to the person that’s looking at that,
man, that’s a big part of it. I mean, like it is like working on music or doing a lot of other types of creative expression. It seems like so much of it, probably like 10 years of it is just trying to figure out how to get through an app and try and figure out how to communicate or how to put the pieces together. And after that it tries to show so that that seems important. But yeah, I’d like that picture. You’re talking about the one of the cans in Yeah, in eastern California. Those are all cans that we found out there. That had been, you know, it looked nuts to because like in the top seven, you can see where the the can opener tool was used on them. Yeah, the old church keys, they probably were from 1870, I had wondered about that. You might know about it. My grandpa told me you’re like that you could, like tin cans would would kind of I guess what it would be oxidized, you know, rust out back to the earth and about 10 or 15 years? Yeah, I wasn’t sure if that was true or not. Or like it would just be stuck out there forever. But yeah, it looked like they were old cans, like old old tin cans pop with the church key and left out there.
Yeah, a lot of those that I find. I always find myself out hunting or hiking and I find an old candy shop or something I end up searching through it. A lot of times I’ll find cans that are typically from, like, the early to mid 60s. That you
know, that makes sense. It seems like the construction of it the way it’s built. It’s different than a modern one a lot of the time. Yeah, but yeah, I’d seen a few that seemed like they were around the 60s.
I mean, they’re so oxidized though. you’d swear there from the beginning of time. Yeah.
The Indians. Yeah. Exactly. dropped in Arrowhead and this beer bottle. Indians love their canned corn. Yeah, it’s pretty funny. But, but that’s Yeah, that’s some of the some of that that backpacking stuff that I’d done. But you were saying you’re in the Kings range. I want to Yeah, about that.
Yeah, it’s done, uh, almost bordering the Sequoia National Forest. And it’s about, boy, this is just me throwing a number based on driving. But it seemed like it was about 65, maybe 70 miles east of Fresno. Oh says yeah, yeah. And the reason we went down there is my cousin was getting married. And as the only family member on the trip, Amber and I were able to go down and witness their marriage with just a couple friends. And really, it was kind of neat. They drew the permit for the area. And they brought along a friend of a friend and then a friend of that friend, so really, nobody knew anybody. Oh, wow. Okay, on this trip, and it became It was a fantastic trip. But I mean, such a place of grandeur. It was just, it was so beautiful. But it was the Great Lakes loop for anybody that may be interested in this. And if you are, I definitely suggest checking it out. And I really promote, you know, put yourself out there and try it. But it was it was cool. It was a I think was 55 miles. That’s a long trip. That’s like a good set of miles. Yeah, no. And, I mean, it was it was great. And, you know, I’ve done I’ve done several hikes, you know, multi-day hikes. But this was the first one that I This was the first time I’d ever really been tested. You know, I mean, the first day, we climbed like, 6500 feet. And that was the first day. That’s significant. Yeah. And so I mean, you know, everybody’s pretty beat and 6500 views and that bad when you don’t have anything on your back, but it was just like, the first day was like this quick little trail through the forest. It was pretty, and then before you know it, you’re just like, switchbacks for like four hours. You know, and you’ve got 4550 pounds on your back. But anyway, we made Basecamp up just below the Alpine level. The mosquitoes were terrible.
There.
But I mean, talk about the most pristine country, and I don’t know if you’ve ever been to Fresno, but you’re down there, and you’re just thinking to yourself. Well, at least I was, you know, yeah,
presidents maybe not the most pristine.
Yeah, President and they’re like, yeah, it’s just east of Fresno. Oh, great. I’m like, there’s not National Park anywhere near I saw pictures. This is not what this place looks like. But no, it was great the first night went up there we made camp. And yeah, I think it we were on the North Fork the Kings river, as I believe. And oh my god, what an impressive river talk about an angry pissed off river man this thing is just frozen. I mean, like you go down to wash your face or fill your water bottle or something like that. I mean, in one One false move, man. You’re gone. And that’s the end of you. That is that is not a river to play around? For sure. Yeah. Yeah, it’s just like 50 miles of class five. is nasty.
Is this lower down? Or is this up into the hills? Like once you made the Alpine level?
Well, so there’s a when you come into the Kings Canyon National Park area, there’s there’s a bunch of different stuff. or excuse me, there’s much different campsites or campgrounds, I should say, around the area. And there’s the river kind of just meanders through there. And then you’re always just kind of near the river. You kind of saw like the Rogue River Trail where you kind of, you’re near it, and then you end up in the hills, then you come back near it. It’s always nearby, though. Oh, sure. If you head downhill, you’re gonna find the river. And so there was a lot of that. But
how many days did you guys take up here for the for the 55 mile chip? We did five, five, and then you guys are pretty sad doing what is that? Like about 11 miles a day? Yeah.
Our first three days were our longest days. We did like 15. We did 15 miles like the first three days. Now we did 15 miles the first day we did 12 the second day, you know, but somewhere in that ballpark. But our last two days were our shorter days. Okay,
yeah, that’s probably the way to do it. Man. I remember being so exhausted of there. Do you ever tell me? Well, it might be different for you. You guys are more healthy. I’m ever going out there. And I remember craving these weird foods. I talked to some other hackers about this before too. Like, were you just like, like, Oh my god, I just want this foods so much right now. But I wanted to ask you if there’s anything like that, that came to mind, I got a couple of months. If you need,
you know, not really, I mean, what I mean, don’t get me wrong. We all sat around, like fire eating are like, you know, in and I’m gonna complain about Mountain House meals. Like, like they’re not good, but there’s so much better than what you used to. Oh, absolutely. I mean, we’re so spoiled. Like, that’s actually I mean, that’s just the that’s like what we used to college, you know, that was like, Yeah, absolutely. No,
I’m pretty happy with a mountain house meal. Well, maybe not a home but but man when you’re out it like it really inspired. You’ve been hiking 15 miles, and you’ve done a 6500 foot elevation gain. Mountain House meal, if it’s beef stroganoff, it’s gonna work.
Oh, stroganoff, beef stroganoff, the best meal that’s in you know, my biggest tip of advice is bring Tabasco or tap to with you. I don’t care if you’re a weight hound, and you’re worried about all those extra ounces in your backpack? Do yourself a favor. Get rid of a pair of socks and pack a bottle of Tabasco. Because, yeah, it just it livens up the mouth. And also, you can sell the basket of people while you’re there because everybody else didn’t think of it.
Tabasco, five bucks.
Yeah. Everybody, everybody sees you pull it out goes, Oh, yeah, that’s what I should have done. No, I
think hot sauce was the thing that I was spicy, was the thing that I was really missing the most, like in succession after a number of days.
Well, and so I you know, I, I joke around and I get the Mountain House meals a hard time. But I mean, they really are good. I guess. The biggest thing is, is that you they’re all kind of on the same palette. Oh, it’s this I don’t know how to say that. It’s just, they’re all kind of like the same level of flavor. Nothing like really stands out. They’re all good. But I mean, they’re all just, I mean, it beats the hell out of an MRI.
I had an MRI a couple of times and then I did I didn’t really enjoy the experience. I’m way happier with the the freeze dried stuff, though. Yeah, boiling water to now.
Yeah, but you know, you get hungry enough, and it’s all pretty good. Yeah, I totally believe that. Remember when everyone ever moved into the house. I had this box of Mountain House meals that I had for hiking and And, like, I don’t know, one night I came home from work and she’s just eating one. Like, what do you do? Like? Well, I’ve been I’ve been eating these for dinner the last couple nights. I’m like,
No, say they’re pretty good. Yeah. I mean, they are good. Yeah.
Every day you need you need like something different. That’s where it’s just nice to have that space. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it’s
totally true. But man, I remember that. I remember I went to cupcake so bad. What was what was it? What was it like out there in the Kings range? We’re going to wrap up in a minute. But But yeah, what was it like out in the in the Kings rage zone?
So, man, it was it was awesome. It was just such a beautiful area. And I’ve never really, I’ve never actually been to any real national parks before. I’ve always just kind of been, you know, in our own backyard and type of thing. Yeah. It’s been out, but that was, that was my first experience like really am just like, you know, some of those public lands that have just been preserved through conservation. And it was fantastic, man. So that was day one. We played some dominoes stuff like that camped out. But one of the coolest things that I was able to experience was
somebody brought powdered Lipton tea. Okay, okay. Phone and, and vodka. Say you mix a little bit of this tea with water. You know, it makes your team x. You know, you mix a little vodka in and then you’ve got them you’ve got cocktails up there at the Alpine level. And, and, but you know what, it’s so great at the end of the day. Oh, man, I’m sure it is. Yeah,
everybody just relaxes. And it’s not an excess, because you can only rush it so much at night. But Nah, man, it was it was great. But so that was day one. I mean, kind of the same thing. Day two, we did 4500 feet of elevation on day two. And that’s when we got up above, like into that Alpine level. And what I found that was interesting is you actually you can’t burn. You can’t have fires up above the Alpine line. Okay, or above the tree line. Excuse me. I’ve heard it. Because like erosion issues. Yeah, we’re just uprooting trees, the small trees saplings and things like that. And then people were just stripping the few trees around the area of firewood. So they just kind of established a no fire above the tree line rule. So no fire that that was a cold night. Um, but we got by, you know, and that’s the other thing too is your, your body kind of goes into that. biological clock mode where you’re, you’re in bed when it’s dark. And you wake up when it’s light. Yeah,
that happened pretty quick for me when I was out, getting used to it. Yeah.
Do you notice how much better you feel when that happens? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It’s just, it’s like your body actually feels. You know? Like, it’s been efficient. Yeah. I’ve noticed. Yeah. But anyway, so we did that. Day three was the most impressive of all the days. And that was when we went over Glen pass. So Glen pass, the summit is at 11,990 feet. Wow. And it was my first time actually being up into like, glacial you know, areas, I don’t know. But we hiked up that day, we got into the snow. I mean, there were like snow spots here and there on the hike up. But at this point, we, I think we did like another, you know, 3000 feet in elevation that day. But we really started getting up into the snow. It started snowing quite a bit. And it was the first time that I’ve just like seen these glacial lakes. And it was absolutely so impressive. Yeah, they’re beautiful. I know. I mean, the first time I saw and I just had to stop and just kind of really take it in to take it into account of what I was seeing. But so we get up there, and we’re for anybody that’s not familiar with Glen pass, if you get a chance, look it up and try to find pictures in the late spring on a good snow year. Anyway, the week before, they were actually requiring crampons and ice picks to go over. Wow. So we had purchased all these things. But last-minute we were told that we didn’t eat them. So and by no means am I a mountain You know, I love the outdoors, and I’ll take on about anything. But this this was a little outside of my comfort zone. Yeah, I understand. So we get up there and, man, it was it was just, it was crazy. You’re looking at it, and you’re just going all right, you know, one foot in front of the other. We’re gonna take this one step at a time. Cuz honestly, by the time you’re hitting the summit of that, of that pass, I mean, if you fell, you’re on such a steep grade, like, you’re going all the way down the hill, and you’re gonna be cartwheeling down. You’re gonna accelerate quick. It’s just gonna be way too much, way too fast. Yeah. Yeah. And and we didn’t have Well, yeah, I guess. I mean, we had crampons. We put them on before we went over the past. But, I mean, we all made it up. It took us about an hour and a half, I guess. Just being careful and cautious. Yeah, you’re moving very, very slow at this point. Yeah. Because I mean, room for air is so marginal. So anyway, we get up there. It was like the last 15 feet was the most sketchy area that we countered. And there was there is that point where you’re just thinking to yourself, you’re like, I can’t do this. I can’t do it. And at that point, you’re way too committed to start thinking like that. Absolutely. That’s the worst. I hate feeling. Yeah, I remember I was just like, Hey, man, shut up. Your eight steps away from being done? Like, push through? Let’s go. And so, so we did it. And I mean, my biggest concern was amber up there. You know, I know my footing is, yeah. And I’ve had a heavy pack on my back before, but I wasn’t sure how she was doing. She did great. She killed it. did a great job. No,
it’s awesome. It’s really cool. That you guys are opposite to it’s awesome to like, get up.
Yeah. And you know what, we get to the top and we’re all celebrate, and everybody’s like, so happy. We take some pictures and stuff. And then there’s like this storm moving. And you can see, and when you’re up at 12,000 feet comes in fast in the Sierras. Yeah. You see these things coming off in the distance, and you can see lightning and everything. And, and you can tell that it’s moving towards you. And it’s and I mean, the very real situation of it is you need to get off that. Yeah. You don’t want to hang out there. So I decided to push off and head downward. And at this point, we kind of realized that going down is probably worse than the way up. Oh, yeah. It’s the same grade. Now. You’re just going downhill with all the weight on your back.
Oh my gosh, are you guys going like straight down? Nice. First, are you guys backing down the mountain? Well, so
you’re backing down the mountain? Pretty much you’ve got your two crashes, right? Yeah. You’ve got your hiking poles. And, and also, before we went on this trip, I thought hiking poles were just for, like, old people and Stacy’s not true. They’re so helpful. They really are. I
mean, I remember you know, and you notice this I bet you guys are probably in better shape. But I noticed like just the my my ankles, like they just weren’t in shape for four and a half straight. They are, you know, 30 or 40 miles of hiking, and they get fatigued, and you’d like you get closer to like losing it. But those hiking or the hiking poles, man, they just totally stabilized you.
Yeah, they did. And honestly, it kind of makes you feel like, like you got four-wheel drive or something you almost feel like a dog like you can. Honestly, though, I mean in, and I was having problems with my back. I don’t care how much you situate your pack and think about how it needs to be set up and things like that. Your pack always hurts you. You’re just not used to it always carrying that kind of weight around your hips and on your shoulders surgery and but the ability to use those hiking sticks is just kind of like something to take the weight off. Oh, yeah. Something to lean forward with. I mean, that helped out immensely. And especially on the way down off of Glen pass. I have kind of a pre existing knee injury that I had happened to me snowboarding several years ago. And on the way down, it kind of just kind of irritated that injury. And that nice it actually became pretty serious and it started raining and it started raining and raining and raining. And I felt quite a bit behind and Amber was cold and I told her to go on you know, I’d figure out where everybody was. And so there was this take situation of separation between everybody that’s what you want. Yeah, Amber amber waited up for me because, you know, I hurt my knee. And then and then you know, somebody waited up for then my cousin waited up for amber and then somebody waited up for Matt and But anyway, it just ended up being this scattered group of people. And then we made our way into camp. That night, which I won’t get into detail, but that was a long, long situation to find where we’re gonna stay similar to this to Yeah, yeah, I mean, we set up camp that night and we experienced one of the most pro storms ever really, when you’re up at that Alpine level, I mean, everything is intensified, like we’re, we got there and it was just dumping, you know, retired. And so we set up our tents as quick as we can try to keep things as dry as we can, I guess, should get into the tents get into dry clothes, get into sleeping bags, try to get your body temperature up again. Sure. And then, you know, weathered the storm for about three hours and then it broke and we came outside it was beautiful and sunny, and we all hung out and had a good time for about an hour and a half. And then the storm came back. And we all went back to bed. Dark nightfall came perfect. And I mean, just this the most intense storm came in. And I’ve never experienced Thunder lightning like this. And I love thunder and lightning. But this, this was to the point where you’re like, Okay, I can lead up through this one. Yeah. I mean, it was was it insane? Six hours.
Yeah. Really? And yeah. And you see those you see those pictures are like the the video real? Like, you know, lightning strikes in the distance and that purple cloud as it hits the desert. That picture you always see that? That’s
Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Or like, or like, mountaineers on Everest, and they’re huddled up in their tents in their tents just flapping around. It looks like it would just sail away if they weren’t inside of it. Yeah. Yeah, it was it was all of that, you know. And you would lay there and the lightning would hit and I mean, it was, this is no exaggeration. It was almost as when the light was dissipating. The thunder would start, and I mean, it was so directly on top of us. Oh, my gosh, it was just a it was absolutely incredible. I was so happy to be able to experience that.
Yeah, that sounds so cool. And then it asked and you guys got through the rest of the night was it was the hike out after that. All right.
Yeah. The next day. We dealt with the rain. Yeah, day. That was a long, tiring day. We got into camp, same thing soaking wet. Get into whatever you have. It’s dry. And you know, and I left my I left my rain fly from my pack at home because I didn’t think I’d need it. Yeah. and ended up doing the trash bag thing. Okay. But yeah, anyway, I mean, the big morale booster for that was we spent about 45 minutes trying to get a fire going with everything we had. Finally, Amber came up with some sappy pine cones that were Oh, rock over here hadn’t been permeated by the water yet. And we were able to get a fire going and
getting the fire going when it’s wet is not easy. Yeah, it’s nuts.
No, it’s not. And I and I’ve, like I’ve studied different ways making fire, things you can do and different tenders you can use and man when it comes down to it, and you’re actually shaking, because you’re kind of at that hypothermic stage. Yeah. And you’re trying to just rationalize what’s best. And how do I do this most efficiently? It’s just never as easy as when you practiced it in your yard in the middle of summer. It’s totally true. You know? Hey, yeah, yeah, absolutely good. Yeah. Yeah, they’re freezing. But anyway, yeah, I had a great fire had a great time. Last day, we hiked out now we all ended up going getting pizza and
hanging out. That’s the way to do it, man. Celebrate with a big meal. Man every time Yeah. Go for a burger, or a big spread of Chinese food. You got to come back and just get like, whatever. Whatever it is you like needed?
It was it was so funny to we’re all like, yeah, this this we get to the pizza place in each purse. There was like, six or seven of us, right? And each of us ordered a large pizza. Like we’re gonna eat the whole thing. And we ordered like for milkshakes yourself. They’re nice. You know? You drink like a third of the milk. Yeah, third of it. slices of pizza, and you’re like, I can’t do anymore. That we had leftovers. We had left.
Three different pieces of leftovers, man. That’s a great story. Robert, they should tell me the the the Kings range. There’s a couple others I want to get to too. We got to break these up, and we’ll stretch them out over a bunch of podcasts. It’s good thing we’re doing a bunch, you know
Yeah, no I yeah, like I talked about there’s a couple things that this this one actually brought up to me that I’ll talk to you about later and maybe it will be the next episode. Stay tuned.
Thanks for doing this. This podcast with you man. We did a we did a solid hour. Got a couple of good backpacking stories in I think that a sweet Yeah.
So So hey, maybe I mean tentatively we talked about these hiking trips we had, but what do you really bring on a hiking trip? Ah.
Oh man. Yeah, that might be a point of the bait. I want to I want to talk to you about that stuff. Yeah, we should go in like a whole episode of like the gear. We think cuz I know you pack a heavier bat. You’re used to it. I’m not I’m scared to heavy packs. When it comes. They suck. Yeah, I try. I try and steer every well cuz I also get stuck with the tripod and the camera bag.
Which is a That’s true. You guys, you’re you’re already ahead. Yeah. Not ahead. But I mean, just the head weight. Yeah,
yeah. So that’s where it’s a bulk. Yeah, I try. And I try and wrap that down a little bit. But But yeah, we should talk about that. I want to break down some of the different gear that that you’re into for backpacking, or for some of the outdoor stuff. I think that might be a good another good couple of episodes to break out to. Absolutely, man, that’d be pretty cool. We got some material. Well, thanks, man, for reminding so much good outdoors material, man. It’s great. I’ve got a feed app. It’s on iTunes. You guys should check it out, review it or read it. If you end up hearing it. That’d be great for us. But hey, thanks for doing it.
Absolutely, Billy. So we talked about doing your photos. Is there anywhere that people could go if they wanted to find your photos got to go to
Billy Nieman photo.com. You can go to App Billy Newman. If you want to check out my Instagram page. All the photos make it up there. They make it up everywhere else too. You can find me at Twitter or Facebook or any of those things. But But yeah, man the website, see my portfolio. All the photos stuff up there. Bunch of landscapes. My kidding. It’s a beautiful stuff. Thanks, Robert. I appreciate it. I have it. My house. shrouded it’s beautiful plastered in Billy’s photos. I appreciate it, man. Well, Robert, thank you very much for doing this podcast with me. Anytime. Let’s, let’s do it again soon. Thanks for doing a long one with me too. I know we went a little over but but it was great, man. Yeah. You know, we
always set a time limit. But I’m never opposed to going over under you know, it’s I think it’s all subject to conversation.
I dig. I like it. I think it’s great. And, you know, in podcasts, they’re built to go long, really, so it’s not bad. But yeah, Robert, I really appreciate you doing this podcast. We got Episode Four out of the way coming into that. That next stretch of five through 10. Man, so be good. We got we got the big growth. The big growth ghanimat podcast right there, man. So yeah, man. On behalf of Robert Miska rap. My name is Billy Newman. I want to say thank you guys very much for listening to this episode. of the get out there podcast.